Got my second win. This build was much more powerful, with 2x Whirlwind and 1x Magic missile doing serious damage early on, and Longstrider helping out as usual.
However, the highlight (and probably something to note for general balance) was Rewind. I had noticed before it seemed quite strong, but this game it really became evident how powerful it is. Judging by how much Rewind alone trivialized getting all gems by the end of most levels, plus its combo potential with Meditate (do they form an infinite combo? I think it might be), I'd say Rewind might actually be overpowered - as fun as it was to use it.
Just something to think about.. maybe I'm wrong and this build elevated Rewind's potential. But it seemed a little too strong. Maybe an "Exhaust" effect on it or reducing the rewind from 3 to 2 turns can ease this? Or increasing its mana cost. Curious if others have the same feeling about Rewind.
I do think this score is half decent now. Victory screen below.
nice win! Good points on rewind, I mostly agree. Theres always going to be balance problems with spells that generate resources and don’t exhaust. Rewind is obviously powerful for this reason, but so is meditate and even longstrider. Meditate is arguably the biggest problem of the three, but it’s such a glue spell that i hesitate to touch it. Exhaust would be effective but I don’t want to put exhaust on too many spells.
I have always had too quick of a trigger finger to nerfing powerful but fun content in “card or card-adjacent” games so I’m going to refrain from touching any balance atm.
From looking at your build, honestly what might be the real problem is 2x whirlwind being too efficient. Things like rewind are only as good as your ability to clear the board of enemies, so maybe whirlwind is a bit too efficient specifically when you have two of them. Earthquake is 2x whirlwind in one spell, but with an extra 1 MP and 2 AP for its efficiency, and it’s also really good. Maybe whirlwind should cost 1 more mp or ap. I could also make it more rare, theres an entirely invisible rarity system and i think whirlwind is relatively common (earthquake is relatively rare).
Got my first win. This is the most fun I've had discovering a game's mechanics in a long time. I want to play some more before sharing feedback or thoughts since I feel I've only experienced a tiny slice of the game. Awesome work again!
Curious to see others' scores! Edit: arguably the below image may contain spoilers for new players, so "view more" carefully ;)
This is the kind of comment any game developer loves to receive. Congrats on the win!
I'd love to know how that process of learning went for you: What was confusing, what's still confusing, and what was immediately intuitive. This is one of those games that isn't really "fun" (subjective, I know) until you have a good understanding of the rules and how that might influence strategy. Getting people from "This is hard and confusing" to your comment here is exactly what I want for everyone, but currently that requires a level of curiosity and trust that most people won't have. Not expecting you to solve these problems for me, just curious to hear more about your experience + feedback!
Thanks! This really is a gem of a game and I see myself playing it a lot more. Thanks for making it again! I appreciate the game is not super newbie friendly, but learning it was pretty intuitive (coming from a Brough games fan / roguelike player). Can see heavy 868-Hack and Cinco Paus inspirations (maybe P1 select too? I didn't play it too much).
I did read your tips before / alongside my first runs - probably the mechanic I took longer to register is that you can't cast spells more than once per turn (except for specific ones). I was also not sure if the void straight up meant game over, did damage or just blacked the screen out permanently. Also, at first it was slightly strange to me that the player can attack diagonally but not monsters, curious as to how you arrived at this mechanic (I assume monsters attacking diagonally made them too strong).
I think transferring general tips and explanations (maybe an extended version of what you have here) to something clickable in game (within a pause menu for instance) would be sufficient to have most players overcome the learning curve. I love not having a tutorial though.
The strategy elements clicked pretty naturally once the mechanics of how AP / turns / mana worked, and building the spell arsenal has kept fun throughout my runs. Being restricted to rows and not being able to re-cast most of them really limits the amount of broken combos you can get (at least to the limit I've been able to theorycraft). These limitations elevate the gameplay in my view - it would be far less fun to repeat the same combo every floor.
If I may share just a few initial ideas: 1. While I don't think it is necessary, it might be interesting to add just another "type" of monster (perhaps one that plays with rows and columns at range, like 868-Hack). I think that a range attack enemy could spice up things and change the spell priority significantly.
2. Having the void animation a bit clearer as to when you will actually die would be helpful (given the gravity of the outcome, lol). I often don't know exactly when it hits and sometimes miss gold or treasure, afraid of mistiming it and trashing my run!
3. Looping / streak mode, whereby you count the accumulated score over 9 games (in 868 fashion). Creates more incentives to prioritize surviving vs. "high-rolling" a great build, and I think the game could open up with additional mechanics layered upon this. For example, having a "loop" slightly buff you (choosing 1 spell to carry over or increasing base stats) but at the same time introducing tougher enemies / tougher enemies earlier. I realize this is not a small change and changes the balance of things significantly though.
Re 1. It's worth mentioning that this is actually the second attempt at making this game. My first attempt was 9 Till Void, which is available on my itch or steam and has similar mechanics but with some tweaks and some things missing (there's no XP or Gems in that one). This game came about from finding the original prototype of that game, which looks a lot closer to Ennead, and realizing "Wow I think I like this prototype more than the thing I actually released? Maybe I should try this again..." And in those older versions there are more enemy types, including an enemy that blocks the spell in its row from being used. I definitely am open to adding more enemies, but in past experiences it's really hard to get players to mouse over enemies to understand what they do, and also players generally dislike really disruptive enemies. The demons in Ennead work well because its so easy to understand them. I'll think more on it though!
Re 2. Yes I can definitely improve this. To clarify how it works, Void gets created at the end of your turn if Turns is at 0, and Void deals 1 damage to any entity at the end of its turn. The damage is dealt before void gets created, so if you move to a cell which will become void at the end of your turn, it wont hurt you. So just be mindful of ending your turn in void that exists right now, and also consider how enemies might end their turns in void too. I can definitely improve the visual on this. I could also maybe simplify it to make everything happen at the end of your turn to remove some ambiguity, it would just change the balance in some subtle but impactful ways since damage would be applied to enemies before they move instead of after.
Re 3. Streaking actually might be a good way to introduce more enemy types. Restrict more disruptive and complex enemies to streak difficulty modifiers. That would work well I think. I'll have to think more though because I honestly don't like the streaking aspect of brough games, usually. I personally prefer when a run can exist in isolation. I do want to provide some new challenge after players win though that isn't just "get a higher score" so I'll see if I can come up with a non streak solution first, but I'll keep streaking in the back of my mind.
Thanks again for the comments! I'm not sure how soon I'll get to updating the game, but I'll make some devlog posts if I do, so be on the lookout!
Thanks for the reply! 1. I actually remember 9 Till Void and have probably wishlisted it before! I'll take a look at it. Interesting that this game came about you revisiting older builds. I hear you on new enemies.
2. Thanks, I did some test runs and the mechanics are now clear. I like the way it works and was under the impression there was some random aspect of taking damage due to the flickering effects, which is not the case.
3. I really like the balancing for single runs you have now so worth thinking about it but the game definetely works without streaking in my view!
I plan to play a lot more and hopefully can send further feedback / ideas. Will stay tuned for updates on your progress here for sure! Cheers!
Hey, I've long enjoyed your games and general vision of what is fun (especially in strategy / turn based games). I've also hung around in Brough games discord and enjoyed your contributions.
Want to say this is a very nice title! Loved giving it a quick spin and will definitely play more. Thanks for making it and I hope you continue working on it (I will be happy to share thoughts and suggestions after playing some more).
It's funny that sometimes you secretly (or quietly) admire or appreciate some stranger's work, but never let them know it. So I thought this release was a good opportunity to do it.
All the best!
PS. This gives me strong Dream Quest vibes, which is an excellent thing.
Oh thank you so much! I really appreciate the comment. Yeah I'd love to hear any thoughts or suggestions you might have, there's obviously a lot of room for improvement with this one haha
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Got my second win. This build was much more powerful, with 2x Whirlwind and 1x Magic missile doing serious damage early on, and Longstrider helping out as usual.
However, the highlight (and probably something to note for general balance) was Rewind. I had noticed before it seemed quite strong, but this game it really became evident how powerful it is. Judging by how much Rewind alone trivialized getting all gems by the end of most levels, plus its combo potential with Meditate (do they form an infinite combo? I think it might be), I'd say Rewind might actually be overpowered - as fun as it was to use it.
Just something to think about.. maybe I'm wrong and this build elevated Rewind's potential. But it seemed a little too strong. Maybe an "Exhaust" effect on it or reducing the rewind from 3 to 2 turns can ease this? Or increasing its mana cost. Curious if others have the same feeling about Rewind.
I do think this score is half decent now. Victory screen below.
x-x-x-x
nice win! Good points on rewind, I mostly agree. Theres always going to be balance problems with spells that generate resources and don’t exhaust. Rewind is obviously powerful for this reason, but so is meditate and even longstrider. Meditate is arguably the biggest problem of the three, but it’s such a glue spell that i hesitate to touch it. Exhaust would be effective but I don’t want to put exhaust on too many spells.
I have always had too quick of a trigger finger to nerfing powerful but fun content in “card or card-adjacent” games so I’m going to refrain from touching any balance atm.
From looking at your build, honestly what might be the real problem is 2x whirlwind being too efficient. Things like rewind are only as good as your ability to clear the board of enemies, so maybe whirlwind is a bit too efficient specifically when you have two of them. Earthquake is 2x whirlwind in one spell, but with an extra 1 MP and 2 AP for its efficiency, and it’s also really good. Maybe whirlwind should cost 1 more mp or ap. I could also make it more rare, theres an entirely invisible rarity system and i think whirlwind is relatively common (earthquake is relatively rare).
Got my first win. This is the most fun I've had discovering a game's mechanics in a long time. I want to play some more before sharing feedback or thoughts since I feel I've only experienced a tiny slice of the game. Awesome work again!
Curious to see others' scores!
Edit: arguably the below image may contain spoilers for new players, so "view more" carefully ;)
*-*-*
This is the kind of comment any game developer loves to receive. Congrats on the win!
I'd love to know how that process of learning went for you: What was confusing, what's still confusing, and what was immediately intuitive. This is one of those games that isn't really "fun" (subjective, I know) until you have a good understanding of the rules and how that might influence strategy. Getting people from "This is hard and confusing" to your comment here is exactly what I want for everyone, but currently that requires a level of curiosity and trust that most people won't have. Not expecting you to solve these problems for me, just curious to hear more about your experience + feedback!
Oh! I also meant to ask, did you read my "Some Tips" section in the game description?
Thanks! This really is a gem of a game and I see myself playing it a lot more. Thanks for making it again! I appreciate the game is not super newbie friendly, but learning it was pretty intuitive (coming from a Brough games fan / roguelike player). Can see heavy 868-Hack and Cinco Paus inspirations (maybe P1 select too? I didn't play it too much).
I did read your tips before / alongside my first runs - probably the mechanic I took longer to register is that you can't cast spells more than once per turn (except for specific ones). I was also not sure if the void straight up meant game over, did damage or just blacked the screen out permanently. Also, at first it was slightly strange to me that the player can attack diagonally but not monsters, curious as to how you arrived at this mechanic (I assume monsters attacking diagonally made them too strong).
I think transferring general tips and explanations (maybe an extended version of what you have here) to something clickable in game (within a pause menu for instance) would be sufficient to have most players overcome the learning curve. I love not having a tutorial though.
The strategy elements clicked pretty naturally once the mechanics of how AP / turns / mana worked, and building the spell arsenal has kept fun throughout my runs. Being restricted to rows and not being able to re-cast most of them really limits the amount of broken combos you can get (at least to the limit I've been able to theorycraft). These limitations elevate the gameplay in my view - it would be far less fun to repeat the same combo every floor.
If I may share just a few initial ideas:
1. While I don't think it is necessary, it might be interesting to add just another "type" of monster (perhaps one that plays with rows and columns at range, like 868-Hack). I think that a range attack enemy could spice up things and change the spell priority significantly.
2. Having the void animation a bit clearer as to when you will actually die would be helpful (given the gravity of the outcome, lol). I often don't know exactly when it hits and sometimes miss gold or treasure, afraid of mistiming it and trashing my run!
3. Looping / streak mode, whereby you count the accumulated score over 9 games (in 868 fashion). Creates more incentives to prioritize surviving vs. "high-rolling" a great build, and I think the game could open up with additional mechanics layered upon this. For example, having a "loop" slightly buff you (choosing 1 spell to carry over or increasing base stats) but at the same time introducing tougher enemies / tougher enemies earlier. I realize this is not a small change and changes the balance of things significantly though.
Re 1. It's worth mentioning that this is actually the second attempt at making this game. My first attempt was 9 Till Void, which is available on my itch or steam and has similar mechanics but with some tweaks and some things missing (there's no XP or Gems in that one). This game came about from finding the original prototype of that game, which looks a lot closer to Ennead, and realizing "Wow I think I like this prototype more than the thing I actually released? Maybe I should try this again..." And in those older versions there are more enemy types, including an enemy that blocks the spell in its row from being used. I definitely am open to adding more enemies, but in past experiences it's really hard to get players to mouse over enemies to understand what they do, and also players generally dislike really disruptive enemies. The demons in Ennead work well because its so easy to understand them. I'll think more on it though!
Re 2. Yes I can definitely improve this. To clarify how it works, Void gets created at the end of your turn if Turns is at 0, and Void deals 1 damage to any entity at the end of its turn. The damage is dealt before void gets created, so if you move to a cell which will become void at the end of your turn, it wont hurt you. So just be mindful of ending your turn in void that exists right now, and also consider how enemies might end their turns in void too. I can definitely improve the visual on this. I could also maybe simplify it to make everything happen at the end of your turn to remove some ambiguity, it would just change the balance in some subtle but impactful ways since damage would be applied to enemies before they move instead of after.
Re 3. Streaking actually might be a good way to introduce more enemy types. Restrict more disruptive and complex enemies to streak difficulty modifiers. That would work well I think. I'll have to think more though because I honestly don't like the streaking aspect of brough games, usually. I personally prefer when a run can exist in isolation. I do want to provide some new challenge after players win though that isn't just "get a higher score" so I'll see if I can come up with a non streak solution first, but I'll keep streaking in the back of my mind.
Thanks again for the comments! I'm not sure how soon I'll get to updating the game, but I'll make some devlog posts if I do, so be on the lookout!
Thanks for the reply!
1. I actually remember 9 Till Void and have probably wishlisted it before! I'll take a look at it. Interesting that this game came about you revisiting older builds. I hear you on new enemies.
2. Thanks, I did some test runs and the mechanics are now clear. I like the way it works and was under the impression there was some random aspect of taking damage due to the flickering effects, which is not the case.
3. I really like the balancing for single runs you have now so worth thinking about it but the game definetely works without streaking in my view!
I plan to play a lot more and hopefully can send further feedback / ideas. Will stay tuned for updates on your progress here for sure! Cheers!
Hey, I've long enjoyed your games and general vision of what is fun (especially in strategy / turn based games). I've also hung around in Brough games discord and enjoyed your contributions.
Want to say this is a very nice title! Loved giving it a quick spin and will definitely play more. Thanks for making it and I hope you continue working on it (I will be happy to share thoughts and suggestions after playing some more).
It's funny that sometimes you secretly (or quietly) admire or appreciate some stranger's work, but never let them know it. So I thought this release was a good opportunity to do it.
All the best!
PS. This gives me strong Dream Quest vibes, which is an excellent thing.
Oh thank you so much! I really appreciate the comment. Yeah I'd love to hear any thoughts or suggestions you might have, there's obviously a lot of room for improvement with this one haha